SmartMeters soon to be installed by local Elec Co

[BraveSirRobbin]

The latest "CES 2010 Update: HAI" on the front page shows some of this new technology.

 

[PaulD]

The latest "CES 2010 Update: HAI" on the front page shows some of this new technology.

I saw that and was encouraged that I may have an option to make everything play nice together when the program kicks off. Unfortunately, I don't have any hard technical info yet on what specific pieces to this puzzle they intend to use. Got a letter in mail today letting me know that people will be in the area soon to swap out the meters and I will have a power outage for "a few seconds". However, the letter did not add any new info to the picture.

 

[honeymonkey]

I live in Ontario where the hydro utility has installed smart meters fairly extensively. While I don't participate, they have also paid people ($25 I think) to participate in a program where during peak times, hydro can reduce your electrical consumption. This is targeted at airconditioning units primarily. To do this, I believe that they have direct control over your thermostat and can "turn it down by one degree". This rubbed me the wrong way, so I'm not part of the program....but I remember that in addition to the $25 there is some reduction in monthly fees (10%?) and they also provided you with a programmable and remotely accessible thermostat.

I believe that the thermostat provided was a single model - with no intent to integrate wiht existing thermostats. I can understand this aspect.

I may be remembering some of these details incorrectly, but it's something along these lines. It's driven by the coming of utility rates based on time of day useage. I'm sure others here can chime in with specifics.

Hi Jeff,

Unfortunately Ontario Smart Meter program is not Zigbee compatible. The invented some proprietary system that was very cost effective for them, so much so that many other communities are adopting it.

The $25 reduction for joining their voluntary program is not a $25 monthly reduction BUT a one time credit of $25. I don't recall any 10% additional reduction, however, if you purchased the omnistat in Ontario, they will give you a $15 credit on your gas bill provided you did not own one before.
It is basically a relay that receives a signal and then shuts down your compressor during critical periods for predetermined times. If you are having a party on a particular day, you can call them and opt out for that day.

The HAI Omnistat2 works nicely though with an OmniPro2 . Since Ontario gives you rate schedules that are static (predetermined low, mid, and peak cost times) you can do all the control through programming to take advantage of the lower 4.2 cents per kwh times which is all weekend long, but the times differ during the week winter and summer. The OmniPro2 will change your thermostat LCD color to green-low, blue-mid, pinkish-high, and red when its critical automatically so you just have to tell the wife and family, "if the thermostat is red or pink, don't dry the clothes and turn out some lights"

 

[sbwright]

If I recall correctly in Ontario CA, if you agreed to installation of the thermostat the Utility company could adjust your thermostat up/down by 1-2 degrees in high demand times. The homeowner could override if they chose to or noticed it.

What the homeowner got out of it was:
1) A free programmable thermostat.
2) They could access their thermostat over the internet to make adjustments from anywhere. But only after joining/logging into a 3rd party website.
3) They could view their previous 24 hr hourly usage from a website the next day.

1) Most likely if you are interested in saving a few bucks you already have a prog. thermostat.
2) 3rd. party why?
3) Yesterdays data, all I can say is woo hoo.....

This whole thing stinks of some kind of kickback scheme by the utility company selling our usage data to some 3rd. party. The more I learned I eventually called up and cancelled the installation

Don't know what technology they are using. I don't believe they will ever allow us customers to access the data in real time, will have to look into the Brultech line.

 

[JeffCharger]

I live in Ontario where the hydro utility has installed smart meters fairly extensively. While I don't participate, they have also paid people ($25 I think) to participate in a program where during peak times, hydro can reduce your electrical consumption. This is targeted at airconditioning units primarily. To do this, I believe that they have direct control over your thermostat and can "turn it down by one degree". This rubbed me the wrong way, so I'm not part of the program....but I remember that in addition to the $25 there is some reduction in monthly fees (10%?) and they also provided you with a programmable and remotely accessible thermostat.

I believe that the thermostat provided was a single model - with no intent to integrate wiht existing thermostats. I can understand this aspect.

I may be remembering some of these details incorrectly, but it's something along these lines. It's driven by the coming of utility rates based on time of day useage. I'm sure others here can chime in with specifics.

Hi Jeff,

Unfortunately Ontario Smart Meter program is not Zigbee compatible. The invented some proprietary system that was very cost effective for them, so much so that many other communities are adopting it.

The $25 reduction for joining their voluntary program is not a $25 monthly reduction BUT a one time credit of $25. I don't recall any 10% additional reduction, however, if you purchased the omnistat in Ontario, they will give you a $15 credit on your gas bill provided you did not own one before.
It is basically a relay that receives a signal and then shuts down your compressor during critical periods for predetermined times. If you are having a party on a particular day, you can call them and opt out for that day.

The HAI Omnistat2 works nicely though with an OmniPro2 . Since Ontario gives you rate schedules that are static (predetermined low, mid, and peak cost times) you can do all the control through programming to take advantage of the lower 4.2 cents per kwh times which is all weekend long, but the times differ during the week winter and summer. The OmniPro2 will change your thermostat LCD color to green-low, blue-mid, pinkish-high, and red when its critical automatically so you just have to tell the wife and family, "if the thermostat is red or pink, don't dry the clothes and turn out some lights"

I agree that it's a proprietary device. When they intially introduced the concept I asked them whether the device was going to provide the homeowner access or if it would be manageable... they hadn't at that time chosen the device. It seems that it's not. When the meter was intalled on my house (and my cottage!) I investigated it and could find nothing that helped me out. I was hoping that I could pull data from the meter into HS, but no luck. I believe that this is shortsighted, since the realtime useage would provide me great incentive to manage it better.... I also suspect that not too many people are interested in doing that, so likely not a good business case.

I also haven't been able to find anyone who subscribed to the program yet....

 

[PaulD]

Got some more info on how OG&E intends to tie the homeowner into the picture. It appears that the homeowners in the test group will receive a "PowerPortal In-Home Display" (IHD) that communicates with the smart meter via ZigBee. Info on the IHD can be seen here.
Looks like the IHD provides the home owner with "near real time" power use as well as info on current utility rates so the homeowner can adjust electriclal usage to avoid higher cost usage periods. Have not found any good info on possible use of thermostats but they are advertising in the help wanted section for thermostat installers.

 

[SteveQ]

Paul D, My electric company (Midwest energy) implemented "smart meters" to all customers about 18 months ago. I don't know who makes the meter but the meter sends its data back to the power company at times chosen by the electric company. Since last October, I have been participating in a "Time of use study". As a participant in the study, I pay a peak rate for electricity weekdays from 3 to 7 PM and a lower rate for the rest of the day and weekends. The peak rate is 5 times the the non peak rate. The idea of the study is to get people to reduce their consumption from 3 to 7 PM by offering lower rates during non-peak hours. If the power company can reduce its peak demand by just a few percent, if can save megabucks because the power company buys power from other power companies during peak times.

Everything in the study is done voluntarily. The power company has a website that provides electric usage to all customers on a Monthly, Daily, and hourly basis. This allows the participants to check their usage at any time to get an estimate of their conservation efforts.

I am also closely monitoring my usage via my home automation system (Homeseer). I have custom Current Sensor modules interfaced via my xAP network that measure my power consumption every 15 seconds. (See graph below). This provides instant feedback. I have Homeseer turn off my water heater and electric baseboard heating and set back the furnace from 3 to 7 PM.

So far I have saved about 10 to 15% on my electric bill over the past 3 months. I like the program and I think it could be an effective way for the power company to stimulate conservation. I do not however believe they will invest in any additional equipment to interface their smart meter data to any home automation systems.

Steve Q

 

[PaulD]

As a participant in the study, I pay a peak rate for electricity weekdays from 3 to 7 PM and a lower rate for the rest of the day and weekends. The peak rate is 5 times the the non peak rate. The idea of the study is to get people to reduce their consumption from 3 to 7 PM by offering lower rates during non-peak hours.

Did they lower the cost during non-peak times vs cost before the program or did they just jack up the peak time cost while holding the non peak cost to the old level?

 

[WayneW]

I am also closely monitoring my usage via my home automation system (Homeseer). I have custom Current Sensor modules interfaced via my xAP network that measure my power consumption every 15 seconds. (See graph below). This provides instant feedback. I have Homeseer turn off my water heater and electric baseboard heating and set back the furnace from 3 to 7 PM.

Does your house really peak at 80,000 VOLTS? (per the graph) I assume that should be Watts?

 

[SteveQ]

Did they lower the cost during non-peak times vs cost before the program or did they just jack up the peak time cost while holding the non peak cost to the old level?

Yes, the non peak rate for program participants is lower than the "normal" rate. When the rates are combined (peak cost versus non peak cost) the total equals what I was previous paying (assuming the same total amount of electricity is used during peak and non-peak hours).

Steve Q

 

[SteveQ]

Does your house really peak at 80,000 VOLTS? (per the graph) I assume that should be Watts?

The Y axis is the voltage output of the DS2438 multiplied by 100. i.e. A reading of 100 equals 1 volt. I did this because Homeseer/xAP likes to use integers so voltages like 2.73 volts appear as 273. Although I have calibrated the current transformer (1 volt ouput =1KW), I am not trying to compare my power measurements with those of the electric company. I don't want to get into a discussion of "power factor"..... lets not go there. The important thing is to look at the patterns and use the graph as a tool to indicate the impact of conservation efforts. A Kill-a-Watt can be used for individual appliances, but it is not very useful for trying to get a picture of whole house consumption.

Steve Q

 

[PaulD]

Finally contacted by my electrical company to enroll in the Smart Study associated with the installation of their Smart Meters. To enroll, it looks like I must install their thermostat (Energate Pioneer Z100) which uses Zigbee to communicate with their Smart Meter I ha. Also, I would need to adopt a new pricing schedule that varies by time of day. Study would run from May to Sept 2010. At the end of the study, the will guarentee that my billing via the special rate schedule will not excee the billing I would have seen via the traditional rate scale.
Peak hours are from 2-7PM. Non peak rates are 4.5 cents/kWh while peak hour rates will vary from 4.5 cents to 46 cents/hr depending on overall demand.
I don't think I will have the option to participate if they require use of their thermostat because I would not be able to tie it to my OPII. I have sent an inquiry to find if they have an alternate device to send me the current rate info in lieu of their thermostat.

 

[potts.mike]

Finally contacted by my electrical company to enroll in the Smart Study associated with the installation of their Smart Meters. To enroll, it looks like I must install their thermostat (Energate Pioneer Z100) which uses Zigbee to communicate with their Smart Meter I ha. Also, I would need to adopt a new pricing schedule that varies by time of day. Study would run from May to Sept 2010. At the end of the study, the will guarentee that my billing via the special rate schedule will not excee the billing I would have seen via the traditional rate scale.
Peak hours are from 2-7PM. Non peak rates are 4.5 cents/kWh while peak hour rates will vary from 4.5 cents to 46 cents/hr depending on overall demand.
I don't think I will have the option to participate if they require use of their thermostat because I would not be able to tie it to my OPII. I have sent an inquiry to find if they have an alternate device to send me the current rate info in lieu of their thermostat.

This might have been answered earlier in the thread but how much can they adjust your thermostat by? Interesting time to run the study with it being the highest electrical usage.

 

[nexus99]

Southern California (SoCal Edison) is going with Zigbee. Hopefully this lines up with HAI.

http://www.zigbee.org/imwp/idms/popups/pop...contentID=16029

 

[PaulD]

This might have been answered earlier in the thread but how much can they adjust your thermostat by? Interesting time to run the study with it being the highest electrical usage.

Good question. Nothing in the material released so far indicate how they will work that angle. The info so far indicates that I would make my own decisions based on rate info they will send me via the new thermostat. It is a programable thermostat so it sounds like they may leave it up to the consumer (at this point) to program the thermostat to avoid high elec usage during the peak periods. However, I suspect they also have an option to let me allow the thermostat make adjustments based on rate structure. I also suspect they will not be overbearing during this study so they can declare victory and then drop the hammer later by imposing HVAC usage rules based on peak usage levels.
The scary part is the rate structure invoked during high usage periods...goes from a normal rate of 4.6 cents/Khw up to 46 cents/hr during "critical" periods.