Experiences with UPB (powerline control), & possible other options

[ano]

I've been using 9 or so SAI devices across multiple breakers and subpanels for several years now. I have a non-addressable/fully automatic repeater between the subpanel and main panel. The reliabilty issues are between select switches that I have set to control the load of each other. I've had lots of issues getting the SAI switches to fit in standard US boxes with wires behind them. I've had jamming/spring issues with the single-rocker plates.

Hmmm now you do realize that repeaters are NOT compatible with SA switches?  SWITCH to SWITCH communications is NOT helped by a repeater UNLESS the switches are version 2 or later and SA does NOT make switches supporting this technology. You probably should have realized that since SA doesn't sell repeaters. Do you mean couplers? Couplers DO work with SA switches but repeaters work MUCH better with the right switches.  I have all Web Mountain and Leviton switches which are all V2+ and compatible with a Leviton repeater (same unit as the PCS repeater) and it works flawlessly.  Its really a sham that Simply Automated is allowed to sell UPB devices and not warn people that they don't comply with the newest standards. It all came down to money. PCS wanted extra money to license its latest technology but Simply Automated didn't want to pay. This is fine if people realize this. Web Mountain takes SA switches and applies the latest updates, so if you really do like SA switches, you can do yourself a favor by buying Web Mountain upgraded switches.  They DO work with repeaters. 
 
If you are going to use SA switches, stay with ALL SA devices such as couplers.  DON'T add NON-SA devices like repeaters and expect them to work with SA. They DON'T.

 

[globramma]

... Web Mountain takes SA switches and applies the latest updates, so if you really do like SA switches, you can do yourself a favor by buying Web Mountain upgraded switches....

 
To clarify -- if I bought SAI UPB switches, I can send them in to Web Mountain for a firmware upgrade?  Is it just a firmware update or do they have to change circuit components or IC's? How much does the upgrade cost?

 

[batwater]

From SA Website, take it for what it is worth, not going to argue the merits as I'm not familiar with Web Mountain, not used their equipment...
 
I guess I don't know what I'm missing but whatever it is I'm not having the problem that it solves.
 
What is Gen II UPB?
Gen II UPB is (essentially) a marketing campaign by a competitor designed to confuse (and distract) people from the (significantly better) functional advantages of Simply Automated products and solutions.
Simply stated, Simply Automated patented dimmer switches, patent pending Inverting Phase Coupler technology and noise/attenuation isolators provide better performance and solutions at a lower (in most cases 50%+) price than any competitor in the lighting control and automation marketplace.
All of the key features listed as Gen II improvements had already been incorporated in Simply Automated products three years before the release of Gen II UPB.  Gen II UPB requires a signal repeater for many applications to improve performance in attenuating environments – rarely required using Simply Automated products and solutions.

 

[globramma]

If anyone can speak authoritatively on the differences between Gen I and Gen II UPB, and the implementations (or lack thereof) in SA vs. Web Mountain hardware, I'd appreciate it. I'm confused now, & a little concerned that I've already started investing in the less expensive SAI switches.

 

[tannebil]

If you are worried about it, install an SA switch on the old wiring across the legs and see if it works. Lots of times, technical improvements are only improvements in theory or in a few edge cases. I replaced an SA switch with a PCS switch to cure an issue with low current draw by LED lights causing flickering (my interior garage lights on an SA switch would flicker every time a UPB command was sent by any device)

 

[ano]

To clarify -- if I bought SAI UPB switches, I can send them in to Web Mountain for a firmware upgrade?  Is it just a firmware update or do they have to change circuit components or IC's? How much does the upgrade cost?

Unfortunately no. The firmware can't be changed on the switches. What Web Mountain did was licensee the latest firmware from PCS (who develops it) and install it in SA hardware which they purchase.  I believe they also  sell unmodified SA devices, so read the description to know what you are buying.

 

[ano]

What is Gen II UPB?
 

Gen II UPB is (essentially) a marketing campaign by a competitor designed to confuse (and distract) people from the (significantly better) functional advantages of Simply Automated products and solutions.
Simply stated, Simply Automated patented dimmer switches, patent pending Inverting Phase Coupler technology and noise/attenuation isolators provide better performance and solutions at a lower (in most cases 50%+) price than any competitor in the lighting control and automation marketplace.
All of the key features listed as Gen II improvements had already been incorporated in Simply Automated products three years before the release of Gen II UPB.  Gen II UPB requires a signal repeater for many applications to improve performance in attenuating environments – rarely required using Simply Automated products and solutions.

I'm sure there was some bad-blood between SA and PCS. I don't know the full story, but like I said SA didn't feel the improvements that would allow a repeater to be used were necessary so they didn't license it, Web Mountain, and Leviton both did.  SA is correct that you probably shouldn't need a signal repeater, and for many houses you don't.
 
My last house was all early SA switches (50+) and while it generally did work OK, I was in the maybe 5-10% of people without 100% reliability.  I added a repeater which DOES help in some ways with SA switches. A repeater DOES help the signal to get from one phase to another. BUT the repeater for SA switches DOESN'T help the signal get from the switch back to the controller or from a switch to another switch. 
 
In my new house i went with all Leviton switches and a repeater and it works flawlessly.  That isn't to say it wouldn't with all SA switches and a coupler, its just luck i guess.  I do have several SA 3-speed fan controllers because nobody else makes those and they do have problems but i live with that. 
 
Get PCS, Web Mountain, or Leviton switches and use a repeater and things will always work great.  Get SA switches and a coupler and it should work fine for 90% of people. Its those other 10% that can get stuck.

 

[ano]

If anyone can speak authoritatively on the differences between Gen I and Gen II UPB, and the implementations (or lack thereof) in SA vs. Web Mountain hardware, I'd appreciate it. I'm confused now, & a little concerned that I've already started investing in the less expensive SAI switches.

Gen I was designed without a repeater in mind.  In the early days UPB was considered so "robust" that a repeater would never be needed.  After they installed it in many houses they found a stubborn few that needed one.  A coupler is a great start, but that's a passive device. A repeater repeats a signal.
 
Gen II supports a repeater by changing the UPB protocol so that it included bits to tell if the signal had been repeated or not.  The repeater works fine amplifying the signal from the controller TO the switch, but from the switch TO the controller this modification was needed to work with a repeater.  That was Gen II.
 
There is NOTHING wrong with Gen 1, and it works for most people using a coupler. But there a few houses where a repeater IS needed and if yours is one of them, you are out of luck with SA switches.  My last house was one of them, and I added 4 couplers in parallel and the signal was barley enough to get by.  I lived with it because the repeater caused other problems with the SA switches.
 
So if you really like the SA switches, what i would do is buy one and attach it to a power cord, and test it in all the outlets of your house. Run UPStart signal test and make sure your signal is strong everywhere.  If it is you are set.  If not add a coupler or two and make sure you can get an acceptable signal everywhere ESPECIALLY on the "other" phase.  If so, you probably never really needed a repeater, so you should be fine.

 

[ano]

If you are worried about it, install an SA switch on the old wiring across the legs and see if it works. Lots of times, technical improvements are only improvements in theory or in a few edge cases. I replaced an SA switch with a PCS switch to cure an issue with low current draw by LED lights causing flickering (my interior garage lights on an SA switch would flicker every time a UPB command was sent by any device)

That is true but you really need to test it EVERYWHERE in your house.  Powerline signals can be flakey and be strong in some areas and weak in others.  Its not so much a problem with the phase the computer/panel is connected to, but more a problem with the "other" phase, and sometimes it has something to do with how close to your house the power transformer is, and in some cases, the manufacturer of that power transformer.  Lots of testing first is the safest way to go and UPStart lets you do that.

 

[DaAwesomeP]

What I meant was a coupler. Also, I'm pretty sure my SA devices support repeaters, because it shows it as an option for most of the switches in UPStart.
 
My next project is to get my switches to control other non-related items. Now that there's an OpenHAB binding (unofficial, not merged yet), I hypothesize that I can create links with no devices/loads attached and simply use OpenHAB to keep the link state. I can use that link to trigger things in OpenHAB.

 

[batwater]

The largest issue I've run into in the last year was the addition of LED bulbs on top of already existing fluorescent fixtures. Fluorescent bulbs (especially shop fixtures), UPSs and various other modern appliances were the death of X10 due to the low signal power produced by the protocol. UPB is 40 volt dc I believe on the AC line and made it through the noise but as I started this post with, the addition of LED bulbs into my home started causing some signal issues with UPB but only when my shop lights were turned on. To solve I added filters to the shop fixtures (and several UPSs for good measure) and the brief blip of issue I had was addressed.
 
The robustness of UPB is tempered by the changes in our environment to be certain. As Ano states, each house is unique. 

 

[Desert_AIP]

I have over 70 UPB devices installed in 3 buildings and two panels.
I use mostly SA but have some Web Mountain and a couple PCS devices.
I use three couplers.
I am using mostly LED bulbs of various manufacture including ballast free T8 replacements in the shop and garage.
The system has been running since 2010 starting with about 50 devices and primarily incandescent bulbs.

The only issue I've ever had was signal attenuation when the electric water heater turned on and coupled the two legs. Adding two additional couplers boosted the signal and I haven't had problems since then. I probably only needed one additional coupler.

 

[ano]

What I meant was a coupler. Also, I'm pretty sure my SA devices support repeaters, because it shows it as an option for most of the switches in UPStart.

Couplers are basically capacitors that transfer the signal across phases. They work with all types of UPB switches.  Of course UPStart allows you to add repeaters, as PCS created the UPB standard and PCS and Leviton sell repeaters. I use one and they work great.  UPStart even lets you use the repeater to perform addition tests. Its very helpful. 
 
As I said above, repeaters even help Simply Automated switches RECEIVE signals from a panel, the problem is SA switches can't use repeaters to get the signals BACK to the panel.
 
You certainly can have a network with ALL types of switches but if you have SA switches you need a coupler no matter if you have a repeater or not.

 

[pete_c]

Relating to lighting and automation and current use of UPB working just fine for me over the years.

I did follow the path of X10 to Insteon to UPB here starting in the 1970's to the 2000's. (today use of and tinkering with are totally separate for me). IE: still on line are X10, Insteon PIM, UPB, Zigbee and ZWave.

OP's assumption of it being a kludge is just that. It is good to ask questions based on users real time UPB use and historicals rather than make assumptions based on rhetoric from the competition. That said that will always happen.

Really much of this relates to what folks are wanting of lighting automation these days or assuming much about what automation is all about.

I do not assume or even attempt at thinking or using one methodology of transport for all of my automation. Never have and probably never will.

The OP here starts with reliability of UPB and posts subsequent comments on said questions from users.

There are and always have been nuances with lighting controls and automation.

That and many new and old homes today are high voltage wired for the legacy mechanical switch with only load wires and the use of electrical wires that will most likely never be replaced or modified.

The typically new fuse panel in a home today is of a design over 50 years old now. (not automation centric)

Here still utilize X10. It was improved by Jeff Volp and today it is only utilized for my Christmas lighting and does work 100% for me. The old X10 switches as kludgy as they were only utilized the two wires (load) which was very simple and not overwhelming following basic electrical guidelines (which most folks not knowing make assumptions anyways).

Relating to my efforts of using UPB here I did improve the base power line infrastructure and learned much about it over the years.

The interconnectivity of a low voltage control wire between switches has always been the 100% sure bet of automating a light. Next the use of the electrical transport throughout the house providing a means of interconnectivity. UPB improved on said communications over the electrical transport. Insteon created a hybrid approach to the issues relating to powerline by mixing in RF. Other companies just went to RF.

Powerline has worked and has been improved on over the years and using a hybrid of a combination of wireless and power line does indeed work.

Pure wireless light switches also works and typically by just adding wireless repeaters (autonomously or integrated in to the switch).

(Zigbee, Z-Wave and 802.11 X).

What doesn't work still today is pushing all of the automation (not just lighting) to the wireless world especially relating to the integration of automation and security. 
 
What truly is a kludge/joke are dependencies of security on wireless battery operated widgets. 
 
That though is not part of this OP as it writes mostly of UPB.

 

[globramma]

Relating to lighting and automation and current use of UPB working just fine for me over the years.

I did follow the path of X10 to Insteon to UPB here starting in the 1970's to the 2000's. (today use of and tinkering with are totally separate for me). IE: still on line are X10, Insteon PIM, UPB, Zigbee and ZWave.

OP's assumption of it being a kludge is just that. It is good to ask questions based on users real time UPB use and historicals rather than make assumptions based on rhetoric from the competition. That said that will always happen.

 
Not sure you understood me correctly. I characterized INSTEON as a kludge because INSTEON's wire-line signalling strongly resembles X10, with X10's well-known flaws -- the "kludge" part coming when INSTEON had a separate RF layer added to it (while keeping the same X10-based wire-line methods) in order to work around the wire-line deficiences.  I made no assumptions about INSTEON based upon marketing rhetoric. My criticisms are based directly upon the INSTEON white paper, quoted above, in which it is made clear that the wire-line protocol is the same low voltage (max 5 volts, but ranging far below that depending on site conditions) as X10.
 
By contrast I don't think UPB is a kludge at all. It was designed for high reliability from the ground up, taking into account the experiences gained w/ X10, and in probably the strong majority of installations (as some have attested, above) it is indeed highly reliable.