StarTrekDoors
Active Member
ano said:
Install is using SImply-Automated switches with only the repeater, no coupler, working better with the repeater than the coupler, which also resolved some serious noise issues the coupler could not overcome.
Adding another system for Lighting to OP2
- Thread starter sjht
- Start date
Install is using SImply-Automated switches with only the repeater, no coupler, working better with the repeater than the coupler, which also resolved some serious noise issues the coupler could not overcome.
StarTrekDoors
Active Member
SJHart said:
@StarTrekDoors ..... [repeater] provides a more advanced form of amplified "coupling" .
Basically, the repeater takes the message on one leg and repeats the UPB message in an amplified state on the other leg, hence the amplified "coupling" effect but technically is not coupling since coupling acts like a bridge for UPB messages but always at a lower signal level across the leg.
Hook up your UPStart and run a status check of all your switches. Do they all show up? If they do, you don't need a repeater. If they don't, then you are now seeing the problem. You also can't use UPStart to program the switches if it can't see.StarTrekDoors said:
Gen 1 switches don't support a repeater on the return direction. The forward direction works just fine, so if you don't know what you are looking for, you don't think there is a problem, but I can guarantee there is.
pete_c
Guru
Here made a gizmo a few years back to test UPB transport around the house on the two phases of electricity.
Use an old computer power cord and cut the end of end such that you have a hot, neutral and ground.
Connect these leads to a UPB switch and use little wire nuts and tape if you want. Cap the load wires from the switch.
Using Upstart configure the UPB switch then move it around the house to see signals from switch on both legs of your fuse panel and various circuits around the house.
Use an old computer power cord and cut the end of end such that you have a hot, neutral and ground.
Connect these leads to a UPB switch and use little wire nuts and tape if you want. Cap the load wires from the switch.
Using Upstart configure the UPB switch then move it around the house to see signals from switch on both legs of your fuse panel and various circuits around the house.
charliebarns
Active Member
All of my lights are ALC so to date I have not delved in to UPB or Zwave. But I am looking at adding Zwave to be able to control some outlets around the home. However I am concerned my OP2 is too far away from the outlets I wish to control. Its located in a wiring room on the lower floor of the home about 100 feet diagonal from the outlet location on the second floor. Is this going to be an issue and am I going to have to install some carrier outlets in between so the message makes its destination? As I understand it each Zwave device added to the network works are a repeater.
CB
CB
pete_c
Guru
ALC is sure bet automation 100% by the wire.
Here the VRCOP has always been in the basement next to the OP2 media can and has worked with all of the Z-Wave devices just fine.
I cannot see the transport nor can change routes of the ZWave nodes connected to the VRCOP.
That said it is the same for X10, UPB or Zigbee connected to the OP2 panel.
You still can have issues with RF black holes lurking in your home using wireless.
IE: my wife's GDO remote doesn't work well with her either holding the remote or using the one in the automobile 10 feet in front of the GD while concurrently it works fine for me holding the remote or using the one in the automobile.
It is not perfect.
Best to test and see for yourself.
Here the VRCOP has always been in the basement next to the OP2 media can and has worked with all of the Z-Wave devices just fine.
I cannot see the transport nor can change routes of the ZWave nodes connected to the VRCOP.
That said it is the same for X10, UPB or Zigbee connected to the OP2 panel.
You still can have issues with RF black holes lurking in your home using wireless.
IE: my wife's GDO remote doesn't work well with her either holding the remote or using the one in the automobile 10 feet in front of the GD while concurrently it works fine for me holding the remote or using the one in the automobile.
It is not perfect.
Best to test and see for yourself.
Just wanted to add our experiences with HLC. Like other might already have said, large HLC (or UPB) installations REQUIRES a phase REPEATER (not the phase splitter).
We have successful HLC systems that runs hundreds of loads without any real issues.
We have had even better success and stability when we used UPStart to acutally enroll the UPB phase repeater in the actual HLC network with the right ID, password and an available UNIT id on the HAI system. Strangely, even with the HAI phase repeater model, the Omni controller cannot add it to the HLC network and reports it as an unknown device. UPStart solve this problem.
It seems repeaters can be installed without configuring it but we found that when we do actually integrate them to the HLC network properly, the system is even more reactive and stable.
The "only" real issue we got is that if two or more user tap dimmer rockers at the same time, it creates collisions on the UPB network resulting in a false feedback lighting status on the Omni controller.
If you base some logic based on load status, your logic might not work. So if two lights are already on and two user close two lights at the same time, the Omni will not receive the status of the light level correctly on both dimmer or maybe just miss one status. If you had a logic condition that was for example "when door not ready, if light off, then light on" won't be executed because even though the light is physically off, the status is still on the Omni controller because of communication collision.
Other than that, HLC is working really nice, 32 rooms with 7 loads and 1 room controller for each room (32nd room only has one load), feedback works ok where there is no collision, system is reactive with maybe 1 second delay.
Programming is also quite fast and eazy for the installer and user. Install all dimmer/switches/scene switchs, fill up all the lighting zone and loads names in PC access, take your laptop with wifi and enroll all HLC devices one by one. Setting a scene is super eazy with 5 tap on the desired scene. Once the enroll process is done, you can take UPStart and read an already installed project and then add the phase repeater correctly on free Unit number.
Good success with HLC and also Radio RA2 but Lutron does not support the HLC structure of 32 rooms. You end up with a big bunch of loads that you need to sort in PCAccess advanced programming rooms.
Strangely the fastest reaction time with lighting on Omni is X10 but the reliability on a medium-large scale project is not a good option on top of not having X10 parts anymore like the rs232 two way tx/rx.
We have successful HLC systems that runs hundreds of loads without any real issues.
We have had even better success and stability when we used UPStart to acutally enroll the UPB phase repeater in the actual HLC network with the right ID, password and an available UNIT id on the HAI system. Strangely, even with the HAI phase repeater model, the Omni controller cannot add it to the HLC network and reports it as an unknown device. UPStart solve this problem.
It seems repeaters can be installed without configuring it but we found that when we do actually integrate them to the HLC network properly, the system is even more reactive and stable.
The "only" real issue we got is that if two or more user tap dimmer rockers at the same time, it creates collisions on the UPB network resulting in a false feedback lighting status on the Omni controller.
If you base some logic based on load status, your logic might not work. So if two lights are already on and two user close two lights at the same time, the Omni will not receive the status of the light level correctly on both dimmer or maybe just miss one status. If you had a logic condition that was for example "when door not ready, if light off, then light on" won't be executed because even though the light is physically off, the status is still on the Omni controller because of communication collision.
Other than that, HLC is working really nice, 32 rooms with 7 loads and 1 room controller for each room (32nd room only has one load), feedback works ok where there is no collision, system is reactive with maybe 1 second delay.
Programming is also quite fast and eazy for the installer and user. Install all dimmer/switches/scene switchs, fill up all the lighting zone and loads names in PC access, take your laptop with wifi and enroll all HLC devices one by one. Setting a scene is super eazy with 5 tap on the desired scene. Once the enroll process is done, you can take UPStart and read an already installed project and then add the phase repeater correctly on free Unit number.
Good success with HLC and also Radio RA2 but Lutron does not support the HLC structure of 32 rooms. You end up with a big bunch of loads that you need to sort in PCAccess advanced programming rooms.
Strangely the fastest reaction time with lighting on Omni is X10 but the reliability on a medium-large scale project is not a good option on top of not having X10 parts anymore like the rs232 two way tx/rx.
You installed two different phase couplers? Just curious is that because of a mix of switches? I use HAI switches only. I do have a coupler and a repeater. My BIG problem is the noise generated from every darn LED light in my house. They all use crappy builtin drivers that are noisy as hell.pete_c said:
pete_c
Guru
You installed two different phase couplers? Just curious is that because of a mix of switches?
When the initial UPB line noise cropped up started with the PCS and SA phase couplers on breakers then what fixed it was the HAI UPB repeater (also on separate breakers).
The above said initial UPB switches here were HAI, then added PCS switches and finally went to SA switches. I have since removed the HAI and PCS switches and upgrade to SA dual load multiple toggle switches for a smaller footprint. Too many switches next to each other here. Too busy looking.
The unfinished basement here used to have all CCFL lamps (~12 in porcelain sockets). Switched all to LED lamps and do not notice any X10 or UPB line noise at this time. There is only 1-2 automated UPB switches in the basement for the Landscaping LED lighting and they work fine. Note here all of my X10 / UPB PIM's are adjacent to the fuse panel on their own circuits and use 25 feet or so extended RS-232 cables. Just changed over to using old RJ11 flat line phone cable instead of cat5/RS232 baluns - a neatening effort in the OP2 can and near the fuse panel. There is one HAI PIM on the second floor on the opposite phase than the primary one connected via RS-232 to ethernet and it is really only utilized to test UPB stuff. I have a Windows server box here that I RDP to for testing X10, UPB, ZWave, Homeseer touchscreen design, PCA et al.
Basement is divided in to a media panel area with cans for telco / network (one switch inside of the Leviton 42" can) / et al and the other section is just a rack with servers, couple of patch panels and switches are on the rack.
When the initial UPB line noise cropped up started with the PCS and SA phase couplers on breakers then what fixed it was the HAI UPB repeater (also on separate breakers).
The above said initial UPB switches here were HAI, then added PCS switches and finally went to SA switches. I have since removed the HAI and PCS switches and upgrade to SA dual load multiple toggle switches for a smaller footprint. Too many switches next to each other here. Too busy looking.
The unfinished basement here used to have all CCFL lamps (~12 in porcelain sockets). Switched all to LED lamps and do not notice any X10 or UPB line noise at this time. There is only 1-2 automated UPB switches in the basement for the Landscaping LED lighting and they work fine. Note here all of my X10 / UPB PIM's are adjacent to the fuse panel on their own circuits and use 25 feet or so extended RS-232 cables. Just changed over to using old RJ11 flat line phone cable instead of cat5/RS232 baluns - a neatening effort in the OP2 can and near the fuse panel. There is one HAI PIM on the second floor on the opposite phase than the primary one connected via RS-232 to ethernet and it is really only utilized to test UPB stuff. I have a Windows server box here that I RDP to for testing X10, UPB, ZWave, Homeseer touchscreen design, PCA et al.
Basement is divided in to a media panel area with cans for telco / network (one switch inside of the Leviton 42" can) / et al and the other section is just a rack with servers, couple of patch panels and switches are on the rack.
pete_c
Guru
Thinking way back the PCS coupler was different than the SA coupler...or read something about this.... that said with each having their own breaker I was able to test them both...The PCS coupler fits inside of the panel and the SA coupler fits in a duplex box outside of the panel.
I did a while ago rearrange all of the breakers and circuits in the panel adding more breakers and making a map of the breakers on my computer and sticking map to the inside of the panel. IE: master bathroom had two breakers (one for the tub and rest of it). I separated it to 3 breakers (over kill) for lighting, outlets and tub. (20 AMP for tub and two 15 AMPs for the other two). I did the same for the TV / Media room...putting one breaker in for the AVR and TV, lighting, fireplace and outlets...all conduit in the house and very easy to fish wire as most of the conduit had only 2-3 wires in it...electrician did single runs to the fuse panel which I liked. IE: also put in a breaker for the chandelier lift mounted in the attic...very difficult to move up there as it is the size of a garage door opener.
I like the SA one better cuz I see the LED indicators on it where as I do not see the PCS LED indicators inside of the panel once I put the cover on it. Same with the HAI repeater mounted on the panel but outside of it. Same with my surge protector as it is mounted outside and has LED indicators and connections to the alarm panel.
I did a while ago rearrange all of the breakers and circuits in the panel adding more breakers and making a map of the breakers on my computer and sticking map to the inside of the panel. IE: master bathroom had two breakers (one for the tub and rest of it). I separated it to 3 breakers (over kill) for lighting, outlets and tub. (20 AMP for tub and two 15 AMPs for the other two). I did the same for the TV / Media room...putting one breaker in for the AVR and TV, lighting, fireplace and outlets...all conduit in the house and very easy to fish wire as most of the conduit had only 2-3 wires in it...electrician did single runs to the fuse panel which I liked. IE: also put in a breaker for the chandelier lift mounted in the attic...very difficult to move up there as it is the size of a garage door opener.
I like the SA one better cuz I see the LED indicators on it where as I do not see the PCS LED indicators inside of the panel once I put the cover on it. Same with the HAI repeater mounted on the panel but outside of it. Same with my surge protector as it is mounted outside and has LED indicators and connections to the alarm panel.
